Moteur Serie K

[XX69]

Bon c'est en anglais mais tres intéressant :

http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/t ... kingk.html

A few myths exploded!

Note the summary:

Quite simply the K is a very remarkable engine, the best four around and uniquely suited to motor sport, far more so than the heavy Japanese copies with all their over-engineering and most particularly the 2L Duratec with its archaic bearing cap design. It deserves very much more recognition for the engine that it is, however it has been badly let down by companies trying to tune it, in fact murdered! What is totally amazing is that these companies, particularly the sports car manufacturers have not gone to the Rover design engineers for any help or advice at all. This has also latterly become the case when developments of the engine were required for different markets and far too many wild assumptions have been made. This has been a huge mistake and a missed opportunity. Given proper respect and understanding it is unbeatable as a four cylinder, and is still ahead of all it?s rivals, but when tuned it must be treated with the respect and care with which it was designed. Given proper appreciation and competent building, it is an exceptional engine. With a host of new developments including the heavy metalled crank, new 2.0L versions ? currently producing almost 300bhp and 190lbft of torque on a plenum [!] it seems that the best is still to come from this engine and that it will continue to considerably outperform all it?s rivals.

[XX69]

Vous y trouverez une tres bonne explication du pourquoi du joint de culasse

maxime

[Jean-Jacques 62]

Apparemment article très intéressant.
Mais quelqu'un pourrait il nous traduire ce texte en français et le mettre en ligne car tout le monde ne parle pas l'anglais technique
Merci

[XX69]

heu ... la c'est quand meme un peu long pour moi qui n'ai acces au web qu'au boulot....

desolé.

si qq un se devoue

maxime

[ludo]

oui je me devoue mais alors y va falloir attendre l'année prochaine
allez une bonne ame polyglotte va mous faire cela
c'est vrai que c'est technique

[SCHAAFF]

Ouha l'article est ardu. Surtout pour un néophyte en mécanique comme moi.

Pour eviter les jdc l'article parle de deux améliorations:
- changer de place le thermosta du circuit de refroidissement
- et changer la tolérance de qqch relatifs aux cylindres

Qq a-t-il compris de quelle tolérance il s'agit ?

Qq a-t-il entendu parlé d'une modif chez un préparateur qui permet de changer le thermosta de place ?

Stephan

[Jean-Jacques 62]

En effet cet article et les quelques pistes de solutions qu'il semble apporter sont très intéressantes et méritent qu'on ait sur ce site une traduction complète et non exhaustive.
En effet, nos voitures, objet des railleries des possesseurs de roadsters de marque différente, remonteraient certainement dans l'estime de beaucoup.
Alors si les solutions existent, ce forum s'honorerait et par la même occasion démontrerait toute son utilité, si cette traduction était mise en ligne
Après on verra à l'usage
Merci par avance aux bilingues

[XX69]

le thermostat est deja modifié sur les derniere TF (apres 2004) et apparement ca arrange beaucoup de chose.

Pour ce qui est de la tolérance, ce sont les taitons de centrage de la culasse qui sont en cause.
Ces tétons sont en plastique sur les F de 95 à 2001. Apres ils ont ete remonté avec des taitons en acier qui permettent un faible tolérance et un bien meilleur centrage.

il y a biensur d'autres pistes, vous pouvez regarder celle ci sur le site de Rob Bell

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/

section Technical, DIY, Common problem

maxime

[SCHAAFF]

Maxime,

Tu dis que le thermostat a été changé depuis les modèles 2004. Est-ce qu'ils ont changé le thermostat pour un plus modèle performant ou bien ont-ils changé son emplacement ?

Stephan

[XX69]

son emplacement a ete changer ainsi que le thermostat lui meme...

maxime

[SCHAAFF]

ok.

c'est ce que dit aussi le site : http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/co ... ations.htm

que tu nous as communiqué. Parcontre il parle de ce changement sur les TFs. Pas de précision sur l'année.

Qu'en penses-tu ? Peut-on pensé que toutes les TF ont ce nouveau système de mesure de temperature et de pression ?

[XX69]

non seules celles a partir de mi-2004

maxime

[SCHAAFF]

Dommage. Je vais continuer à serrer les fesses alors.
:,)

[XX69]

La réponse d'un concepteur du moteur

There are elements of Simon?s article that have made my blood boil. Not least because I am still bound by confidentiality, so can?t put the record straight completely. I work for Landrover now so as a customer for the K series engines I am privy to ?secret? information. I cannot be drawn into discussing the perceived weaknesses of the engine but must restrict myself to historical fact and engineering science.
Simon?s article like any other written by the tuning brigade has some correct info but is also littered with half truths and folklaw. I think he may also have listened to his uncle Spen a little too much as well. The sources he quotes were certainly not there at the start of the K series story and in most cases not even the middle. In my potted history below you will have to accept I haven?t been there for the last five years either.
The ECV had a 3 cylinder engine in it derived from the E series. It was a brave attempt but had some flaws notably the slipper cam valvetrain did not work particularly well. It was adapted by Tidmarsh?s (now Prof) team at BL technology (Gaydon) where Spen King was probably in overall charge after the Jaguar-Rover-Triumph era. It has no direct linage to K series. The ports and combustion chambers for all BL engines at this time ( 70?s & 80?s) were however developed by this team. This included AJ6, M & K. They discovered barrel swirl or tumble almost by accident on the Dolomite sprint. This team did include Alan Warburton who is now Director of development at Powertrain Ltd.
( This is before my time at Austin so others may like to comment on historical accuracy).
I was seconded with my then boss Richard Hodges (ex Morris) to the Advanced engines team at Longbridge in 1984 to work on a replacement for the A series. This team was headed up by Graham Atkin formerly and latterly of Lotus. The designers were led by the late F.S. (Stan) Johnson who was old school Austin having worked with Isogonis on A and a string of other still born engines. The development engineers were led by Barry Parkes and included Mr Warburton. I think Barry was a BL technology man too. Richard and I were there to provide design calculations and stress analysis. There was still an involvement from BL Tech with the likes of Peter Parker and Stan Wallace. There was also a cylinder head designer Colin Dexter from Triumph (latterly of Jag) and Paul Burke who I believe is still at Lotus today. The team also included a couple of bright young engineers who I won?t embarrass by naming who are senior managers now in the current Jaguar and Landrover Powertrain organisation. Ricardo were also consulted for their views on what a modern engine should look like. So you can see it was quite a heady mix of talents that conceived the K series. This team designed, built and ran the concept 3 (973 cc) and 4 cylinder (1300cc) or DL1 engines. The specific output (bhp/litre) and light weight were astonishing straight out of the box. All the K series features were there in these engines, twin cam 4 valves per cylinder, layered construction, long bolts, wet liners, bedplate and low volume but high flow rate cross flow cooling system etc.
In 1985, at DL2, the engine was handed over to the main Engine team in the ADO (Austin drawing office) who up to this point had been working on 4 valve/cylinder versions of S and 0 series as well as the A+ engine for Metro. This team was not short on talent either and they set about designing a mass production feasible version of K series. The design team were led by Dick Spray and included Terry Hoare another Austin man through and through. The development team included George Houghton most notably. I rate these people, along with Stan, among the most gifted engineers I have had the pleasure of working with. The engine had now been stroked to 1.4 litre because of an apparent tax break. An 8 valve cylinder head was also developed as an entry level. The advanced engines team was disbanded, Stan was retired and the rest were dissolved into the main team. (politics Eh)
This was the time when the drawing boards all but disappeared from the ADO and CADCAM was being adopted. This enabled the wide use of mathematical modelling techniques such as Finite Element and Computational Fluid Dynamics analysis. This was employed extensively on K series at this time to optimise the NVH and thermo-mechanical performance. We did use some consultants on this but the majority of the work was done in-house by our rapidly expanding Design Analysis team. I am biased of course but I believe we were way ahead of our competition in this aspect. Robert Allebon was a member of this team and still leads it today in Powertrain Ltd.
K series went into production in 1988, funded by the DTI. The production facilities really were state of the art then. Both Horrocks and Musgrove had to put their jobs on the line (all credit to them) to ensure the investment, but this was not before the DTI had given set a drawings to both Ford and Porsche. (Incidentally I toured the engine assembly at BMW in Munich in1999 and it was still well behind K, but Hams Hall that?s something else).
If your interested in this time you can still find a few relics in the Heritage museum at Gaydon. There was also plenty presented at the IMechE?s Autotech conferences in 87 and 89.
The team now turned its attention to designing Vee engines. We spent over a year designing a KV8 to be told by Landrover it didn?t have enough cubes. What a pity, wouldn?t that be great in the ZT. We did procure some bits but an engine was never built. We eventually came up with the KV6 for the Rover 800 and then Rover 75. The important thing here is that it led to the introduction of the 80 mm bore. It was tried first as a top hung wet liner on a K4 but this was never a serious design as it was obviously inadequate from a durability stand point. The intention was to employ cast in dry liners, but this was the BAe era and there was no money for the boring and honing machines, so a pre-finished liner was essential. Dick and George dreamt up the mid hung or ?damp? liner as an expedient to save all the 80 bore engine projects. I did some analysis, some K4?s were tested and it was quickly adopted. I suspect Dick being an ex BSA man had seen the Triumph motorcycle which had the same type of liner. I had certainly seen a technical paper from Ricardo on that engine but the damp liner had not registered with me. (forgive the pun). The 1.6 l engine displaced the Honda engine in Rover 400 and then the 1.8 l was developed for the MGF. Then there was the VVC, still one of the most advanced systems around.
We then come to the BMW era where all development on K was virtually halted. Dick, myself and a team of about 12 gifted designers went to Munich to help with the design of the New Generation engines. BMW asked the consultants FEV which was the class leading 1.8 litre engine, I wish I had been there when they were told it was K series not M43 or M44. We designed the bottom end of the 4 cylinder that?s made at Hams Hall (note the bedplate construction) and it was myself and the team back at Longbridge that did most of the meaningful (CAE) design analysis. We then moved on to design a V6 for Rover 75 and the vehicle that became LR3. This went like stink exceeding its performance targets but has never gone into production. When BMW ditched Rover we were given the option of jobs in Munch which about half a dozen of the lads accepted, Dick, George and Myself opted to go to Landrover along with a sizable chunk of the rest of Rover Product engineering.
Part of the terms of the disagregation was that a competent engineering function was to be maintained within Midland powertrain which if you remember remained part of BMW for a year or so after the split. The people that were left at Longbridge are more than competent and have now become truly world class again as Dick and George have rejoined after taking early retirement from J&LR. I know this team has not been idle in the last 5 years watch out for major revelations soon. This is the expertise the Chinese are buying, it should ensure the future for my mates in product development, but I fear for the blokes on the track.
As for Simons comments about the robustness of the K series. You have to remember it was developed as a powerful road going engine with a max continuous speed of 6500 rpm. The bearings are not too small and the crank is plenty strong enough, I know I did the sums, I was there. Rovers durability standards call for the engine to do 200 hrs balls out none-stop. I can tell you not many other engines in my experience are capable of that. Have a look in the back of Autocar and calculate some specific outputs ? 105 ps out of 1.4litres, 160 (VVC) & 200 (turbo) ps out of 1.8 litres, 190 ps out of 2.5 litres and don?t forget the four cylinder only weighs 100 kg. Still class leading I think you will find. Please compare with competitors. How many K?s have been made now?, it must be over 3 million.
Oh, Simon we sell KV6 in Freelander in the States and it has 3 cambelts. The 4 cyl in Rover 75, I think has the same engine management system, so I have never understood why it can?t be certified.
If you?ve waded thro? this till the end you must be a true enthusiast. Sorry for personalising it so much but I strongly feel that the people I?ve named deserve credit as the shapers of K series. There were of course lots of other people who put in valiant effort to make the engine the success it is. We shouldn?t forget the management who enabled it also, there are four of these that have risen to Director level in Ford. The Automotive industry is littered with people who cut their teeth on K series.

[Didier MGFVVC]

Ce changement est t?il faisable sur une MGF et une idée du prix de la modif?
Si cela est réellement efficace et peut éviter un joint, c?est peut être une solution à envisager ?
Si il y a un technicien travaillant chez MG qui suis le forum, son avis serait précieux

[XX69]

la liste des pieces est disponible sur le site de Rob... il donne une estimation et franchement je prefere attendre le prochina joint de culasse hypothetique que de payer ce prix ...

maxime

[Jean-Jacques62]

Non mais c'est un monde ici
Tout le monde y va de sa nouvelle piste, tout le monde commente, mais personne n'est fichu de donner des explications en FRANCAIS compréhensibles par la totalité des membres.
Alors là pas bravo du tout sur l'éfficacité de ce forum

[XX69]

Ce moteur dans les freelanders et les MGF est souvent entre les mains de gens habitué aux voitures modernes ou l'on tourne le contact et on accelere de suite. Il y a de forte chance que beaucoup de joint de culasse (qui ont lieu le plus souvent hiver en plus) soit causer par une monté en temp trop rapide du a une mauvaise utilisation.

Mais il est aussi reconnu que le circuit etant tres long sur une MGF (presque 10m je crois) et qu'il est en deux parties (une pour le rechauffement rapide qui marche en circuit fermé pres du moteur et un plus long qui passe par le radiateur, soit la cause de de ce probleme de chco thermique. en effet le thermostat attend que l'eau soit chaude dans le moteur pour ouvrir le circuit du radiateur, or celui ci etant tres long il refroidit tres vite, l'eau entrant dans la systeme est donc beaucoup plus froide au celle qui etait dedans, d'ou le choc thermique qui n'est effectivement pas bon pour un moteur alu.


Désolé Jean Jacques, mais je n'ai pas le temps materiel de faire cette traduction moi meme. Et comme lorsque l'on parle moteur tout est en anglais...

une passe par babelfish ou altavista doit donner un premier jet mais lors c'est technique ca donne des choses pas tres lisible...

maxime

ps : je cross post entre ici et le MX5passion c'est pas simple... Jean Jacques je vois que tu es aussi sur les deux.

[Jean-Jacques62]

Salut Maxime,
et oui, je suis aussi sur forum MX-5 passion.
Je crois que ce fichu problème a peut être trouvé sa solution dans le déplacement du thermostat ou alors peut-être existe-il une solution pour d'emblée dès que l'on met en marche le moteur, ce soit l'intégralité du circuit de refroidissement qui se mette en marche ce qui suprimerait le possibilité de choc thermique?
Décidément l'avis d'un technicien autorisé et compétent semble être indispensable pour nous éclairer.
Je suis persuadé que ce pb peut être résolu facilement, puisque ce moteur tient en position avant sans pépins.
A l'aide!!!!!
et, il est franchement malheureux de laisser la réputation d'un tel roadster se ternir autant si les solutions techniques existent.
A+

[zs_life]

la modification effectuée inclut l'ajout au circuit d'une vanne PRT, pressure release thermostat, son but est de créer une mini circulation de liquide dans le circuit de refroidissement lorsque le calorstat est fermé.
C'est un système entierement mécanique, situé entre la pompe à eau et le radiateur avec une dérivation vers le bloc moteur, permettant ainsi au liquide de circuler et d'éviter le fameux choc thermique lors de l'ouverture du calorstat.

[O. VDB]

Sur une TF-135, comment y a t il moyen de savoir si on a un PRT ou pas (surtout si on l'a acheté vers la mi-2004...) Avec le VIN? Si oui où on peut trouver l'info?
Merci d'avance.

[Arnaud]

Oui :
http://www.lame-delegation.de/mgf-net.d ... gf_vin.htm

>The pressure relief thermostat PEM101020 (black coloured) got introduced in late 2004 (désolé)

>4D6xxxx pressure relief thermostat appeared in some cars

>4D629951 The pressure relief thermostat PEM101020 (black coloured) got introduced *official*

>4D638640 updated semi-transparent coloured pressure relief thermostat PEM101020 got introduced with minor differences on the bypass valve

On peut voir où ça se situe :
http://www.mgfcar.de/epc/1166.htm


Numéro 19

Installation (sur une Elise):
http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/fitting2.htm